Mangala Ganapati?

 

Hindus believe the strangest things. Or is somebody else behind this laughably amateurish clip on YouTube, which can´t even AI-generate grammatically correct English? On another YT channel, we learn that there are statues of Ganesha in pre-contact Colombia. Here, we´re supposed to believe that there are idols of the elephant-headed god on Mars?! 

Any relation to Quetzalcoatl´s big face or the Egyptian pyramids? LOL. It´s going to get really crowded on the red planet soon if every religion/culture/alternative thinker will project their greatest achievements onto its surface. Maybe the flat earthers will start arguing that Mars is flat, too? 

The journey to other planets have never been this easy.  

Elephants evolved

 

HA HA HA, this is so confused that it becomes unintentionally funny. Erich von Däniken, come back, all is forgiven! So apparently the Hindu god Ganesha has evolved in a way similar to elephants. Or something. Or maybe something else. 

Just another god

Some people in the commentary sections to the above videos seem to think this is a joke, although it´s not clear who they think is the joker. The content-creator? Or the cult leader? Or perhaps the aliens, LOL? 

Hinduism have always invented new deities, sometimes by elevating humans to divine status. Besides, there are one billion Hindus, so why can´t one of them go mustang and build a shrine to Annunaki aliens? There´s a lot of Hindu/ancient aliens hybrid content on YouTube, Hindus evidently being the only "colored" people not insulted by Erich von Däniken´s speculations. Indeed, the content-creator himself seems to cater to precisely that subculture! 

Maybe somebody should tell Whitley Strieber?  

Religion in the making

 

More on Great Tartary c/o ChatGPT. The rabbit hole goes deeper and deeper. I wouldn´t be surprised if these fringe ideas would become the new world religion in the event of a *real* apocalypse...or a Russian global empire (same thing).  

Have their been any attempts to combine Great Tartary or the New Chronology with religion?

Yes — quite a few, and they tend to follow predictable patterns.
Whenever Great Tartary or New Chronology gets woven into religion, the goal is usually to:

1. Claim a hidden “true” origin for a faith.

2. Paint that faith as the original universal religion of the lost mega-empire.

3. Use the conspiracy to support a nationalist or cultural revival.

Here’s how it plays out in different contexts:

---

1. Russian Orthodox Fusion

• Fomenko himself flirts with this: in New Chronology, he equates many Biblical events with medieval Russian history.

• For example:

  • Jerusalem in the Bible was actually located in Constantinople or even in Russia.

  • Jesus lived in the 12th century.

  • The apostles were tied to Russian or “Tartarian” rulers.

• The “Mongol Empire” becomes the Orthodox Christian super-empire, uniting Eurasia before its suppression by the Vatican and Western Europe.

---

2. Esoteric Christianity & Gnosticism

• Some fringe channels present Tartary as the true Christian civilization — pure, non-papal, energy-based, and spiritually advanced.

• The “mud flood” becomes a deliberate apocalypse to erase true Christianity and replace it with “corrupted” versions.

• Tartarian architecture (cathedrals, star forts) is framed as sacred geometry holding divine energy.

---

3. Islamic Adaptations

• In Turkic and Central Asian fringe circles, Tartary is tied to the Golden Horde and described as a Muslim super-empire.

• New Chronology-style redating is used to claim that:

  • Many prophets or Islamic heroes lived in the “Tartarian” timeline.

  • The mud flood was divine punishment for abandoning true Islam.

• Sometimes linked with Mahdist or end-times narratives — Tartary will “rise again” before the final judgment.

---

4. Hindu & Vedic Versions

• In New Age / pseudo-historical communities, Tartary is merged with Vedic civilization:

  • Tartary becomes the northern branch of the ancient Vedic world.

  • Its “free energy” tech is identified with Vimanas.

  • Fomenko’s redating is used to “prove” that Hindu epics describe recent historical events.

• This often bleeds into “Aryan homeland” theories, placing it in Siberia or Central Asia.

---

5. Syncretic “One World Religion” Claims

• Popular among YouTube Mud Flood theorists: all major religions were one in Tartary.

• They claim symbols like the cross, crescent, swastika, and star were originally Tartarian and only later split into separate religions.

• Architecture from different faiths is rebranded as “repurposed Tartarian temples.”

---

6. Occult / Theosophical Spin

• Blavatsky’s Theosophy is sometimes retrofitted to include Tartary:

  • Tartary is framed as one of the lost root races.

  • Mud flood is a cataclysm between “root race” cycles.

• Avalokiteśvara, Christ, and other figures are merged as “avatars of the Tartarian spiritual tradition.”

---

In short — yes, religion gets woven in a lot, but always as part of a mythic golden-age narrative where Tartary was the cradle of a pure, ancient faith, later “fragmented” into our modern religions.

If you’d like, I can outline the most common “Tartary was the real Christianity” storyline, which is the one I’ve seen most often in the English-speaking conspiracy sphere. That one gets very creative with Biblical geography and history.

Yes, please do so!

Alright — here’s the “Tartary was the real Christianity” storyline as it circulates in conspiracy subcultures, especially the English-speaking Mud Flood / New Chronology crowd.

---

1. The Premise

• There was once a massive Orthodox Christian empire — “Tartary” — stretching from Siberia to Eastern Europe, maybe even into North America.

• This empire had pure, original Christianity, untouched by the Catholic Church, Protestantism, or modern Orthodox hierarchy.

• Jesus and the apostles supposedly lived far later than the conventional dating — often placed in the 12th–14th century.

• Biblical events didn’t happen in ancient Palestine, but in places like Crimea, the Caucasus, or even Moscow.

---

2. Architecture as “Proof”

• The huge “Tartarian” cathedrals, monasteries, and star forts found across Russia, Ukraine, and Central Asia are claimed to be:

  • Built before the biblical events (or during them)

  • Powered by free energy harnessed through domes, spires, and crosses

  • “Resonators” for divine or atmospheric energy

• Many “church” buildings are said to have been repurposed from Tartarian energy temples after the empire was destroyed.

---

3. The Great Deception

• According to this narrative:

  • The Vatican and Western European monarchies plotted to destroy Tartary.

  • They rewrote history to:

    • Move biblical events thousands of years into the past

    • Relocate them to the Middle East

    • Erase Tartary’s role in “true” Christianity

• The “Mongol invasions” of the 13th century were supposedly Western propaganda masking the Catholic takeover of Eastern Christendom.

---

4. The Mud Flood as Apocalypse

• The Mud Flood is interpreted as:

  • A natural disaster sent by God to punish the usurpers

  • Or a man-made cataclysm to bury Tartary’s high technology

• After the flood, Catholic/Protestant powers took control of surviving cities, rebranded them, and installed their own clergy.

---

5. Doctrinal Claims

• Tartarian Christianity is imagined as:

  • Simple and direct — no hierarchy, no papacy

  • Focused on free access to divine energy (“Holy Spirit” as literal electrical ether)

  • Unified with natural law and architecture

• Some even claim Tartary preserved apocryphal gospels that revealed Jesus as a teacher of free energy and anti-usury economics.

---

6. Modern Implication

• If this is true, they argue:

  • All modern Christian denominations are “corrupted”

  • To restore “true” Christianity, one must revive Tartarian architecture, energy systems, and liturgy

  • The West’s entire historical timeline must be rewritten

---

This storyline borrows heavily from Fomenko’s New Chronology, Orthodox revivalism, and classic anti-Catholic conspiracy theories.
In fringe circles, it’s often blended with:

• Flat Earth (Tartary’s tech supposedly proved geocentrism)

• Free energy suppression

• Biblical literalism re-timed to the Middle Ages

---

If you like, I can also map how this “Tartary-Christianity” story overlaps with the Russian nationalist reinterpretations of Orthodoxy — that’s where a lot of these ideas started before they spread to the West.

Yes, please.

Alright — here’s how the Tartary-as-True-Christianity idea overlaps with Russian nationalist religious reinterpretations, particularly the kind influenced by the New Chronology and post-Soviet Orthodox revivalism.

---

1. Roots in Russian Intellectual History

• Old Believers & pre-Petrine nostalgia
  Since the 17th century, some Russian religious groups (Old Believers, mystical sects) have viewed the West — especially Catholicism — as a corrupter of “true” Orthodoxy.

• Post-Soviet re-enchantment
  After 1991, many Russians rediscovered Orthodoxy but often mixed it with esotericism, Slavic neopaganism, and conspiracy theories about historical falsification.

• Fomenko’s New Chronology
  Provided a “scientific”-sounding foundation to say:

  • Biblical events happened in medieval Rus’.

  • Jerusalem was in Crimea or the Caucasus.

  • “Jesus” might have been a prince or tsar of the Russian realm.

---

2. Orthodox + Tartary Fusion

In this blend:

• Tartary = the true Holy Rus’
  An enormous, Orthodox Christian empire united by one faith and moral code, with its capital somewhere in Siberia or near the Volga.

• Biblical geography relocated
  Jerusalem is not in the Levant; Bethlehem, Golgotha, and Mount Zion are all “misplaced” in Western-dominated maps.

• Orthodox liturgy as primal
  The rites of Tartary supposedly match the “original” worship given by Christ and the apostles — before Rome’s corruption.

---

3. Anti-Western Religious Narrative

• The Vatican, Jesuits, and Protestant reformers are portrayed as a single anti-Christian force.

• The “Mongol Yoke” becomes a code for Catholic and Muslim incursions into Orthodox lands.

• Peter the Great’s westernization is rebranded as a final betrayal — destroying Tartary’s sacred architecture and free-energy domes.

---

4. Esoteric Orthodoxy & Architecture

• Church domes, crosses, and iconostases are claimed to be energy-harvesting devices that amplified divine grace physically.

• Icons are seen as literal “energy portals” — a belief with some roots in Orthodox mystical theology, but here exaggerated into techno-mysticism.

• Pilgrimages to old monasteries are reframed as reconnecting to the energy grid of God.

---

5. Overlap With Other Russian Fringe Religions

This Tartary-Orthodoxy mix bleeds into:

• Slavic Rodnovery (native faith revival), with Tartary recast as a pagan-Christian syncretic empire.

• Cosmist theology (à la Nikolai Fedorov), where spiritual progress is linked to advanced tech, and resurrection is a literal future engineering project.

• Neo-Starchild theories — belief that ancient Orthodox saints were advanced beings or “angels” in the flesh.

---

6. Why It’s Appealing

• Gives a grand, proud history for Russia and the East.

• Turns Orthodoxy into the center of world Christianity rather than a branch.

• Explains geopolitical rivalries as part of an eternal spiritual war between Tartary/Orthodoxy and the West/Vatican.

---

If you want, I can next chart how these Russian-origin Tartary-Christianity ideas migrated into Western Mud Flood & Flat Earth circles and got reinterpreted for a mostly Protestant or New Age audience — which is quite a twist in the story. That’s when it stopped being just about Orthodoxy and became a kind of “universal lost golden age” theory.

Yes, please.

Alright — here’s how Tartary-as-True-Christianity migrated from post-Soviet Russian Orthodox nationalism into Western conspiracy culture and then mutated into something far less Orthodox and much more “New Age / Flat Earth.”

---

1. Initial Transmission to the West (2000s–2010s)

• Early English-language Tartary content came from translators of Fomenko and alternative history bloggers.

• Russian YouTube channels about “forbidden architecture” got subtitled or mirrored.

• Architectural photography of onion domes, massive masonry, and abandoned Siberian cities acted as the “gateway drug” — Western viewers loved the aesthetics without the theology.

---

2. Detheologization

• In Russian sources, Orthodoxy is central — Tartary was the kingdom of the true Christ, liturgy was pure, saints were literal miracle-workers.

• In Western retellings, religion became optional — churches were reframed as:

  • Free energy plants

  • Sound resonance healing centers

  • Ether-powered communication hubs

• The Orthodox cross, in Russian versions a sign of the “true faith,” became in Western versions a “geometric antenna” or “ancient sacred tech symbol.”

---

3. Mixing With Flat Earth & Mud Flood

• Flat Earth tie-in:
  Western Tartary content often absorbed the FE cosmology — claiming that the Tartarians knew the true shape of the world and mapped the outer lands beyond Antarctica.

• Mud Flood tie-in:
  The idea that Tartary’s architecture was buried in a global cataclysm fit perfectly into the existing Mud Flood mythos.

• Time compression:
  New Chronology’s collapse of ancient and medieval timelines got blended with the FE crowd’s claim that “history is only 500–1000 years old.”

---

4. Fringe Cross-Pollination

In the English-speaking sphere, Tartary now overlaps with:

• Free energy / Tesla myths — Tartary supposedly mastered etheric power.

• Star forts as “electrical substations.”

• Atlantis revivalism — Tartary rebranded as a Eurasian branch of the Atlantean empire.

• Biblical reinterpretations — Protestant conspiracists sometimes claim Tartary was the true Christian millennial kingdom after Christ’s return, erased by Satanic forces.

---

5. Western Religious Rewrites

• Protestant version: Tartary = post-Resurrection kingdom where Christ reigned physically for 1000 years (premillennialism).

• New Age version: Tartary = an advanced civilization of spiritually enlightened beings using “crystal tech” and “ley line energy.”

• Occult version: Tartary’s cathedrals = magical portals between realms, destroyed in a war with interdimensional entities.

---

6. Why This Shift Happened

• Most Western audiences have no background in Russian Orthodoxy — so the religious specifics got dropped.

• The architectural mystery and anti-mainstream-history vibe translated well into the existing alt-history YouTube ecosystem.

• Flat Earth channels were already looking for “evidence” of a lost, technologically advanced past — Tartary fit like a puzzle piece.

---

If you like, I can map a side-by-side comparison of Russian Orthodox Tartary vs Western Flat Earth / Mud Flood Tartary, so you can see exactly which elements stayed, which were lost, and which were invented along the way. That contrast really shows how the same myth can serve two totally different worldviews.

The Great Crazy

 

So I had to ask ChatGPT about the craziest grand conspiracy theory on-line (this side of David Icke)...

Can you tell me something about the Great Tartary / Mud Flood conspiracy theory?

Yes — the Great Tartary / Mud Flood conspiracy theory is one of those modern internet-born mashups of fringe history, alternative archaeology, and lost-civilization mythology.

Here’s a breakdown:

---

1. Core Claims

• Great Tartary — Proponents say there was once a massive, advanced empire called “Tartary” or “Great Tartary” that covered most of Eurasia, from Siberia through Central Asia and into parts of Europe and North America.

• Erased from History — They argue that this empire was deliberately erased from history books in the 18th–19th centuries, supposedly by “the powers that be” (often Britain, Russia, and other empires of the time) to hide knowledge of a superior civilization.

• Mud Flood — The theory claims that in the 18th or 19th century, a worldwide cataclysm (“mud flood”) buried entire cities under several meters of earth, with many older buildings’ lower floors now being underground or half-buried.

• Free Energy Technology — Supposedly, Tartary had advanced technology (especially free energy from “antique” architectural features like domes, spires, and star forts) that was suppressed.

---

2. “Evidence” Cited

• Old maps — Historical maps (16th–18th c.) label Central Asia as “Tartary,” which was simply a European geographic term for regions inhabited by Turkic and Mongol peoples — not proof of a unified advanced empire.

• Buried windows/doors — Urban photos showing street-level windows partly underground are said to prove the “mud flood,” when in fact many are due to later street regrading or construction changes.

• Ornate architecture — Large 18th–19th century buildings are claimed to be too advanced for their era, supposedly “inherited” from Tartary rather than built by the known historical cultures.

• World’s Fairs buildings — The grand temporary palaces of 19th-century expositions are cited as Tartarian structures “destroyed after use” to hide the truth.

---

3. Origins of the Theory

• It’s a recent internet phenomenon, gaining momentum around 2016–2018 on YouTube, Reddit, and fringe history forums.

• Combines older “hidden history” ideas with:

  • New Chronology theories from Russia (Anatoly Fomenko).

  • 19th-century “catastrophist” geology.

  • Steampunk aesthetics and fascination with lost empires.

---

4. Scholarly Position

Historians, archaeologists, and geographers reject the claims:

• “Tartary” was a vague European term, not a secret empire.

• No geological evidence supports a recent worldwide “mud flood.”

• Architectural “mysteries” are explainable by standard engineering and urban development history.

• It functions more as pseudohistory and modern myth-making than actual historiography.

---

5. Why People Find It Appealing

• Romanticizes a lost, utopian civilization.

• Distrust of official history and institutions.

• The visual lure of old maps, strange architecture, and atmospheric photographs.

• Feeds into a broader cultural appetite for “hidden truths” and alternative narratives.

---

If you want, I can map out how “Great Tartary” evolved from a real geographical term in historical maps into today’s internet conspiracy narrative — the transformation is surprisingly fast and well-documented.

Can you tell me more about the Russian "New Chronology"?

Yes — the Russian “New Chronology” is one of the biggest “alternative history” systems ever constructed, and it’s directly comparable in scope to Great Tartary theories, though it’s even more sweeping.

---

1. Origins

• Developed mainly by Anatoly Fomenko (b. 1945), a mathematician at Moscow State University, along with fellow mathematician Gleb Nosovsky.

• Started in the late Soviet period (1970s–80s), but gained traction in Russia after the USSR collapsed, when distrust of Western narratives and Soviet history was very high.

• Fomenko claims to be applying statistical and astronomical analysis to rewrite world history.

---

2. Core Claims

1. Most ancient and medieval history is fabricated.

   • The “true” written history of humankind begins around AD 800–1000.

   • Events before that are either invented or are duplicates of later events, misdated and renamed.

2. Biblical and medieval history are the same events.

   • For example, the Trojan War = the Crusades.

   • Biblical Jerusalem was actually Constantinople.

   • Jesus lived in the 12th century and was crucified in Constantinople.

3. The “Mongol Empire” = the Russian Empire.

   • The “Tartars” or “Mongols” were actually Russians (often identified with the Cossacks).

   • The Russian state once ruled a vast Eurasian “super-empire” that has been erased from history.

4. Western Europe stole Russian history.

   • Western historians in the Renaissance (notably Scaliger and Petavius in the 16th–17th centuries) supposedly created the false “ancient” and “classical” past to elevate Rome and diminish Russia’s role.

---

3. Methodology

• Fomenko uses:

  • Statistical analysis of texts (word frequencies, narrative structures) to claim many historical documents are copies of each other under different names.

  • Astronomical dating of eclipses in chronicles to “prove” that ancient events actually happened in the Middle Ages.

  • Selective interpretation of maps, architecture, and art.

---

4. Political / Cultural Context

• Appeals strongly to Russian nationalist sentiment, since it reframes Russia as the true center of world civilization.

• Dovetails neatly with Great Tartary ideas — in fact, some Tartary believers treat Fomenko’s “Russian Empire = Mongol Empire” as a scholarly backbone for their theory.

• In Russia, it’s sold in large multi-volume sets and even covered in mainstream talk shows.

• Outside Russia, it’s fringe, though it has small followings among “hidden history” enthusiasts.

---

5. Criticism

• Historians, archaeologists, linguists, and astronomers universally reject it.

• Misuses statistical methods and cherry-picks data.

• Ignores or dismisses physical evidence (stratigraphy, radiocarbon dating, dendrochronology).

• Known to conflate artistic symbolism with literal record (e.g., taking medieval illustrations as photographs of real events).

---

6. Overlaps with Other Fringe Theories

• With Great Tartary: Both posit a huge erased Eurasian empire and claim historical erasure by Western powers.

• With Ancient Tech claims: Fomenko’s Russia often has “advanced” infrastructure in the Middle Ages.

• With Flat Earth: Small overlap — mostly in the mutual distrust of astronomy as practiced today, but Fomenko himself doesn’t push flat earth.

---

If you like, I can outline exactly how Fomenko’s “New Chronology” and Great Tartary merge into one mega-theory in some online communities — it’s quite a tangle. Would you like me to do that next?

Yes, please!

Alright — here’s how Fomenko’s “New Chronology” and the Great Tartary / Mud Flood narrative often fuse together into one giant “hidden history” storyline in certain online circles.

---

1. Shared Premise

Both theories start from the same foundational suspicion:

“Official history is a deliberate fabrication by Western elites to hide a glorious, advanced past.”

• Fomenko: says the “Mongol Empire” was actually the medieval Russian Empire, a highly advanced Eurasian power.

• Great Tartary: says a vast civilization (“Tartary”) once covered most of Eurasia, technologically superior, and was erased in the 18th–19th centuries.

Because they both involve a lost mega-empire in Eurasia and suppression of its legacy, they are easy to merge.

---

2. Merging of Empires

In the blended theory:

• “Tartary” = Fomenko’s Russian/Mongol superstate.

• This state ruled from the Pacific to Eastern Europe, often extending into North America (via “Old World” colonies).

• Capital cities are placed in Tobolsk, Moscow, or even Samarkand, depending on the variant.

---

3. Mud Flood as the “Reset”

Here’s where Mud Flood ideas come in:

• Fomenko explains the “erasure” of this empire as a textual fraud by Western historians.

• Mud Flood believers replace or augment that explanation with a global cataclysm in the early–mid 1800s.

• This “mud flood” supposedly buried cities, destroyed Tartary’s tech, and allowed Britain, Rome, and the Vatican to rewrite the past.

---

4. Reframing of Events

The fusion theory tends to reinterpret major historical moments:

• Napoleonic Wars: really a last-ditch fight between Tartary (Russia) and the Western alliance.

• Crimean War (1853–56): framed as the final destruction of Tartary, not a regional war.

• Industrial Revolution: not invention, but re-discovery of Tartarian tech after the mud flood.

• Colonial Empires: “cover story” for reclaiming lost Tartary territories.

---

5. “Advanced Tech” Angle

Both theories feed into claims of:

• Star forts as “power stations.”

• Railroads, giant cannons, and massive masonry being Tartarian tech.

• Atmospheric energy systems (think “free energy towers”).

• Architecture in European cities and the US as proof of a global Tartarian aesthetic.

---

6. Why They Fit So Well Together

• Mutual distrust of archaeology, carbon dating, and conventional timelines.

• Romantic nationalism: paints Eurasia (often specifically Russia) as a betrayed civilizational heart.

• Open-ended mythos: Great Tartary is so loosely defined that Fomenko’s dates and places can be plugged in without much conflict.

• The geographical overlap is near-perfect — both place their mega-empire across Siberia, Central Asia, and Eastern Europe.

---

7. Differences That Cause Friction

• Fomenko puts the “fall” of the empire mostly around 1600–1700, whereas Mud Flood believers prefer a 19th-century reset.

• Fomenko’s work is text-heavy and “scholarly-looking”; Mud Flood theory relies more on photographic anomalies and architecture.

• Fomenko’s followers don’t always accept the more extreme tech claims (e.g., free energy domes), though some do.

---

If you like, I can map out a timeline of “world history” according to this merged Tartary–New Chronology–Mud Flood narrative, so you can see exactly how they reshape events from 1000 AD to the 1900s. That’s where it gets really… creative.

Australia is in the wrong place, mate

 

Which are the most stupid conspiracy theories? Difficult to say, since the competition is pretty damn stiff. However, strong candidates would include the Mandela effect, flat earthism, the Moon landing hoax, and pretty much everything about Great Tartary and the Mud Flood. 

Even "the face on Mars" was "better", since those who believed in it could at least point to photos of the Mars surface where one strange structure *did* look like an alien face. They had pics to prove it. But what the heck do flat earthers have? A Kansas corn field? Sure, I concede that it *does* look flat...

Some of the above conspiracy theories are extremely multifaceted. The Mandela effect includes pretty much everything that has been misremembered or misunderstood by larger groups of people. For instance, that Australia looked different on older maps. Yeah, that´s because there´s more than one map projection, bruh. Or that certain lines in old movies feel "wrong" when the movie is rewatched 30 years later. Yeah, that´s because your memory isn´t flawless. Or because the movie exists in several different versions. Or because you confused it with MAD magazine´s parody version. And what about the Bible? Didn´t the Lord´s prayer use to sound differently? Well, yeah, probably. That´s because there´s more than one Bible edition...

Or maybe you´re a loser who lives in a trailer park together with low IQ White trash? I´m kidding, but seriously, find another hobby!

In a similar vein, Great Tartary and the Mud Flood seems to be a veritable Oak Island treasure trove of misinformation about our past. Was Stonehenge really built after World War II? Were the Napoleonic Wars actually a nuclear war? You get the picture. 

I happen to have an open mind concerning the supernatural or paranormal. But if people make up so much shit about natural events, how can I trust them when they speak of supernatural ditto? But perhaps I´m looking at this the wrong way. The fact that people are bad observers and serial confabulators might mean that something unknown, something strange, supernatural even, could be hiding from us. Perhaps in plain sight.

Maybe that´s the real conspiracy. 

 

Debunked by ChatGPT

 

Wtf, ChatGPT debunks some of my favorite speculations about ancient Scandinavia, damn you, Sam Altman, damn you! 

Is there any evidence that Uppland was ruled by queens from Scythia during the so-called Vendel period?

There’s no credible archaeological or historical evidence that Uppland — or any other part of Sweden — was ruled by “queens from Scythia” during the Vendel Period (c. 550–790 CE). That idea belongs more to the realm of myth, speculative ethnography, and 19th–early 20th century romantic nationalism than to modern historical research.

Here’s why:

---

1. Where the “Scythian queens” idea comes from

• Classical sources like Herodotus describe the Scythians (nomadic Iranian-speaking peoples in the Pontic steppe) and occasionally mention prominent women among related groups (e.g., Sarmatians, Amazons).

• In the early modern period, antiquarians tried to link Scandinavian legends to ancient world peoples. Olaus Rudbeck (17th century) famously identified Swedes as descendants of Atlanteans and Scythians.

• Some 19th-century historians interpreted saga references to powerful women — especially in Hervarar saga and Ynglingatal — as dim memories of steppe-born “Amazon” rulers.

• The Hervarar saga itself places part of its action in a semi-mythical “Reiðgotaland” and has connections between eastern warriors and the Svear, but this is saga-literary geography, not a reliable historical record.

---

2. What archaeology says about the Vendel period

• Uppland in the Vendel Period is known for rich boat graves, weapon burials, and elite male warrior culture. The style of helmets, shields, and harness mounts shows contact with both the Byzantine world and the steppe (through trade routes along the Volga and Dnieper).

• Some burial finds — horse gear, decorated mounts, and certain weapon types — have stylistic parallels with steppe nomad art. This shows trade and cultural contact, not political rule by foreign queens.

• Women’s graves from the period are sometimes richly furnished, indicating high status, but there’s no evidence these women were foreign-born Scythians or held sole political power.

---

3. Why the “queens” part is unlikely

• The political structures in Vendel-era Svealand appear to have been dominated by male war-leaders and kin-groups, with ceremonial kingship linked to cult sites like Old Uppsala.

• Elite women could have strong influence (as landholders, marriage alliance brokers, priestesses), but no contemporary or near-contemporary evidence points to a dynastic line of foreign female rulers.

• Even the most prominent saga queens — like Yrsa or Auðr the Deep-Minded — are embedded in a legendary chronology that mixes myth and historical kernels from many centuries apart.

---

4. The kernel of truth

• Uppland elites did have contacts with eastern Europe and the steppe world during the Vendel period via trade routes (the “Eastern Way”).

• Exotic goods — silks, glassware, silver, horse equipment — sometimes came via steppe intermediaries.

• A few decorative motifs on weaponry and gear have clear Sassanian or steppe-nomad origins, probably copied locally after goods reached Scandinavia.

• It’s conceivable that some high-status women in Svealand had eastern ancestry through marriage alliances with merchant-warrior groups from the Baltic’s eastern shore, but that’s not the same as rule by “Scythian queens.”

---

If you like, I can outline how certain burial finds in Vendel and Valsgärde have been misread as “Amazon” graves and why modern archaeologists interpret them differently. That’s where most of this legend picked up its pseudo-historical momentum.

Yes, please.

Alright — here’s where the “Amazon graves” idea in Vendel-period Uppland came from, and why modern archaeology doesn’t buy it.

---

1. The burials that fed the legend

In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, Swedish archaeologists excavating Valsgärde, Vendel, and other sites in Uppland found:

• Boat graves with richly furnished male warrior burials.

• A smaller number of richly equipped female burials — sometimes with jewelry, imported glassware, high-quality horse gear, and occasionally a weapon.

• Some women were buried with horses or elaborate horse equipment, which is unusual for most of Scandinavia but does have parallels in Eurasian steppe cultures (where mounted female warriors appear in both archaeology and myth).

Early scholars (working under the influence of Herodotus and the Amazon legends) leapt to the idea:

“These must be Scythian or Sarmatian ‘Amazon queens’ who came to rule the Svear!”

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2. Why this was plausible to them at the time

• Steppe parallels: In the 19th century, a few female burials from the Pontic steppe were found with weapons, leading to the “real Amazons” hypothesis. When similar patterns (women + horses) were seen in Sweden, the connection was tempting.

• Saga echoes: Old Norse literature (e.g., Hervarar saga) speaks of warrior women (skjaldmær), sometimes tied to eastern lands. Linking them to archaeology felt natural to romantic nationalist historians.

• Diffusionism: The prevailing model assumed major cultural innovations came from outside — so rich or unusual graves were interpreted as proof of foreign elites.

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3. Modern reinterpretation of these graves

Contemporary archaeology looks at these finds differently:

a) Local elite women, not steppe rulers

• The rich female graves match local Scandinavian elite burial customs — the goods, although sometimes imported, are arranged in Scandinavian styles and are part of known local assemblages.

• Horse burials for women may signal status within an elite household tied to horse-breeding or ceremonial functions, not necessarily martial roles.

b) Trade, not conquest

• The steppe-style horse gear and decorative metalwork probably arrived via Baltic trade routes linking Uppland with Gotland, the eastern Baltic, and through the Rus’ river systems to the steppe.

• Imported objects do not automatically mean imported rulers — the elite were avid consumers of exotic prestige goods.

c) The “weapons = warrior” assumption is shaky

• In many cases where weapons are found in women’s graves, they may be symbolic or related to status rather than evidence of active combat.

• Burial practice is a cultural performance, not a literal record of a person’s life role.

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4. Why the “Amazon queen” idea persists in popular culture

• It’s a romantic, cinematic image: exotic warrior women riding into Uppland from the steppe.

• It neatly connects Scandinavian prehistory to the wider Eurasian drama.

• It blends saga heroines, Greek legends, and striking archaeology — irresistible for TV and novels.

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Bottom line:
Those “Amazon” burials from Vendel-period Uppland are almost certainly local high-status women buried according to Scandinavian traditions, with some imported goods from the east. The “queens from Scythia” hypothesis is a romantic 19th-century overlay, not supported by current archaeological interpretation.

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Could Odin be a euhemerized version of Attila the Hun?

That theory has actually been floated — especially in the 19th and early 20th centuries — but it’s on very shaky ground. Let’s break it down.

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1. Where the idea comes from

• Medieval sources: Snorri Sturluson (Prose Edda, Ynglinga saga) and the Old English poem Widsith present Odin not purely as a god, but also as a legendary ancestor-king who led the Æsir from somewhere in the east into Scandinavia. Snorri even suggests he came from “Asaland” or “Asia,” specifically around the Don River or Black Sea region.

• Medieval chroniclers (like Saxo Grammaticus) sometimes rationalized pagan gods as deified human leaders — this is the euhemerist approach.

• Since Attila the Hun († 453 CE) came from the Eurasian steppe, and Odin was imagined as an eastern conqueror, some antiquarians guessed they were the same person.

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2. Why people thought it might fit

• Chronology guesswork: If Odin had been a real steppe chieftain, his supposed migration to Scandinavia could (in imagination) align with the 5th century — right after Attila’s death.

• Steppe imagery in Norse myth: Odin’s horse (Sleipnir), his role as a war god, and some of his shamanic traits have vague parallels with Central Asian warrior and shaman traditions.

• Name parallels in migration myths: Medieval historians sometimes mapped known “barbarian kings” onto older mythic figures to make sense of them.

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3. Why modern historians reject it

• Time depth: Odin worship is attested in Scandinavia well before Attila — Roman sources from the 1st–2nd century (like Tacitus) already mention a god similar to Odin (Mercury in the interpretatio romana).

• Mythic complexity: Odin’s role as death-god, magic-worker, and culture-bringer is far too mythologically layered to originate from a single historical chieftain.

• Geographic mismatch: The “Asaland” of Snorri is mythic geography, not a literal memory of Hunnic Hungary.

• Linguistics: The name Óðinn (from Proto-Germanic Wōðanaz) has Indo-European etymology meaning “fury” or “inspiration,” unrelated to Attila’s name or title.

• Lack of cultural continuity: Huns left little trace in Scandinavia compared to the massive influence of earlier and later trade/migration waves.

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4. What’s more likely

• Snorri and others were using euhemerism to integrate pagan gods into Christian historiography. They chose “Asia” origins for Odin to make him fit biblical migration stories (everyone ultimately coming from the east after the Flood).

• The “Odin as eastern king” motif might preserve dim memories of some migration of elite warrior bands from the south or east — possibly Goths, Lombards, or other Germanic groups returning north — but not of Attila specifically.

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In short:
The “Odin = Attila the Hun” theory is more of a romantic antiquarian speculation than a serious historical proposition. Odin’s cult is far older, and his mythic profile doesn’t match Attila’s biography. The resemblance is a product of medieval euhemerism plus 19th-century fascination with linking all dramatic history to famous named figures.

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If you want, I can also walk you through the other “historical Odin” theories, including the one that ties him to a real migration leader in southern Denmark around the 4th century. Those have a bit more plausibility than the Attila idea.

Is there any evidence that Värend was the home of the Heruli?

There’s no hard archaeological proof that Värend (the southeastern inland part of modern Småland) was the home of the Heruli, but there is a longstanding historical speculation tying the two together — and it’s based almost entirely on medieval chroniclers and some suggestive (but not conclusive) patterns in place names and burial finds.

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1. The historical Heruli

• The Heruli (Heruli in Latin, Eruli in Greek) were a Germanic-speaking warrior people who appear in late Roman sources from the 3rd to 6th centuries CE.

• They roamed widely — fighting in the Balkans, raiding the Aegean, serving in Roman armies — and were sometimes based near the lower Danube.

• In the mid-6th century, Procopius (Wars, VI.15) famously reports that a remnant of the Heruli, after losing to the Lombards, “returned to the island of Thule” — meaning Scandinavia — to live among “their kinsmen.”

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2. Why Värend comes into the picture

• Olaus Rudbeck (17th century) and later Swedish antiquarians suggested that Procopius’s “Thule” meant southern Sweden, and that Värend (and perhaps Blekinge) was their ancestral homeland.

• Part of this comes from the phonetic similarity between Heruli and certain old place names in Småland (e.g., Härlöv, Härlunda, Häradsbäck). “Här” could be linked to Herul-, though it’s just as likely from Old Norse herr (“army”).

• The region has a concentration of large Iron Age burial mounds and weapon-rich graves, consistent with a militarized elite — but this is true of several parts of southern Sweden.

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3. The evidentiary problems

• There’s no direct inscription, runestone, or artifact in Värend that explicitly names the Heruli.

• Procopius is vague — “Thule” could mean anywhere in Scandinavia. Many have argued for Gotland, Öland, or southern Norway instead.

• Archaeology can’t distinguish “Heruli” graves from those of other Scandinavian elites of the period.

• The idea that the Heruli originated in Värend is mainly a 17th–19th century romantic-nationalist hypothesis; most modern historians treat it cautiously.

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4. Where scholarship stands now

• Mainstream view: The Heruli were a mobile warrior group whose exact homeland in Scandinavia is unknown.

• Värend is a possible return point after 550 CE, but not proven.

• The only solid link is the possibility of onomastic echoes and the general martial character of the archaeological finds in the region.

• Many experts lean toward the idea that the “return” was small in scale — perhaps a noble band rejoining related clans — rather than a large tribal migration.

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If you’d like, I can walk you through the step-by-step reasoning Procopius gives and compare each detail to archaeological finds in Värend, Gotland, and Öland to see which location best fits his account. That’s the method historians use to test the Värend-Heruli theory.

Is there any evidence that the Phoenicians visited Scandinavia during the Bronze Age?

There’s no direct, indisputable evidence that Phoenicians ever reached Scandinavia during the Bronze Age — but there is a mix of suggestive clues, speculative theories, and a few genuine archaeological puzzles that have kept the idea alive in fringe and semi-academic circles.

Here’s how the case is usually presented and why mainstream archaeology remains skeptical:

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1. Chronology problem

• The Phoenicians (centered in what’s now Lebanon) became a major seafaring and trading power around 1200 BCE and thrived until the 6th century BCE.

• The Nordic Bronze Age was roughly 1700–500 BCE, overlapping with the Phoenician period in its later centuries.

• So in theory, long-distance contact was possible in the later Bronze Age.

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2. The trade motive theory

• Bronze Age Scandinavia had no native copper or tin — both had to be imported.

• Phoenicians were expert long-range traders, sourcing tin from as far away as Cornwall.

• Some have speculated they could have extended their tin-seeking voyages farther north, perhaps reaching the amber-rich Baltic.

• Amber from the Baltic is found in Mediterranean Bronze Age contexts — but this doesn’t prove direct Phoenician voyages; amber could have moved through many intermediary traders.

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3. Archaeological hints (and why they’re debated)

• Bronze artifacts in Scandinavia sometimes show stylistic parallels to Mediterranean designs (spirals, sun motifs), but these could also be due to shared Indo-European cultural themes or indirect trade.

• A few rock carvings in Sweden and Norway depict ships with profiles that some claim resemble Mediterranean galleys — but most Scandinavian archaeologists see them as native designs.

• Metal composition studies sometimes show copper in Nordic Bronze Age artifacts with isotopic signatures matching Iberian or even Cypriot sources — again, this shows trade links but not necessarily Phoenician sailors in Nordic waters.

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4. The Carthaginian connection

• Later Phoenicians (especially Carthaginians) certainly reached the Atlantic coasts of Spain, Portugal, and possibly the British Isles.

• Ancient authors like Himilco (reported by later Roman sources) describe voyages far north, perhaps to Britain’s tin mines — but there’s no firm textual evidence of voyages beyond Britain.

• A few fringe writers link the Carthaginian voyages to mythical lands like Thule, which some place in Scandinavia, but this is highly speculative.

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5. Mainstream conclusion

• Yes: Baltic amber and southern copper moved between Scandinavia and the Mediterranean during the Bronze Age.

• Yes: Phoenicians were capable of such voyages and had trade interests that could, in theory, lead them north.

• No: There’s no solid archaeological or textual proof they personally sailed into Scandinavian waters. The more plausible scenario is a trade relay system through continental and Atlantic intermediaries.

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If you want, I can give you a map reconstruction of possible Bronze Age trade networks showing how amber could have moved from Jutland and southern Sweden all the way to Tyre and Sidon without a Phoenician ship ever touching the Skagerrak. That’s where most scholarly models land today.

Was the Phoenician hypothesis a scholarly consensus about 30 years ago?

No, it never was a true scholarly consensus. Even 30–40 years ago, mainstream archaeologists treated the idea that Phoenicians directly visited Scandinavia as speculative or fringe.

Here’s a brief context:

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1. Early 20th-century interest

• Some scholars in the early 1900s were fascinated by possible Mediterranean influences on northern Europe.

• Researchers sometimes suggested “Phoenician voyages to Scandinavia” to explain certain Bronze Age artifacts or amber trade, but these were mostly hypotheses, not widely accepted conclusions.

2. Mid-to-late 20th century

• By the 1970s–1990s, Scandinavian archaeology had strong empirical bases from local material culture, rock art, burial practices, and isotope studies.

• The focus shifted to regional developments and long-distance trade networks, showing that Mediterranean goods reached the north via intermediaries (Germanic and Central European traders) rather than direct Phoenician contact.

• Textual sources on Phoenician voyages were treated cautiously because they were often much later and sometimes mythologized.

3. Current view

• The “Phoenicians in Scandinavia” idea is now considered highly unlikely, bordering on pseudohistory, though some popular books and fringe writers still promote it.

• Most archaeologists accept Phoenician amber trade via relay networks, not personal navigation into the Baltic.

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So, 30 years ago, the hypothesis existed in publications, but it was never mainstream or consensus. It was more a curiosity at the edge of Bronze Age studies.

If you want, I can list some of the main scholars who argued for and against it in the 1970s–1990s to see exactly how it was debated. Do you want me to do that?

Yes, please.

While the idea that Phoenicians directly visited Scandinavia during the Bronze Age was never a scholarly consensus, it did gain some traction in certain circles during the 20th century. This hypothesis was largely based on interpretations of archaeological finds, such as Mediterranean-style artifacts and the presence of Baltic amber in Mediterranean graves. However, these theories were often speculative and lacked direct evidence.

By the late 20th century, with advancements in archaeological methods and a more nuanced understanding of trade networks, the mainstream scholarly community moved away from the notion of direct Phoenician contact with Scandinavia. Instead, researchers emphasized the role of intermediary trade routes and local developments in the Nordic Bronze Age.

Today, the idea of direct Phoenician voyages to Scandinavia is largely considered a fringe theory, with most scholars focusing on more substantiated models of trade and cultural exchange.